So, those millions of people Vergil got killed... again.(SPOILERS)

Lain

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I'm not sure Vergil can actually be blamed for Urizen taking advantage of the tree.

Moreover, it seems obvious that Urizen's actions were never Vergil's plans. He intended to separate the weakness and corruption from himself just to fight Dante, but when Urizen was born he didn't actually care much at all about Dante. Instead he tried to invade and rule over both worlds, something that was explicitly not Vergil's prerogative. It seems as though Vergil had no idea that Urizen would deviate so much from his own desires, and that V trying to stop him is highly indicative of that.
I disagree that Vergil holds no blame. First of all, it was because of his selfish desires that he created Urizen. Even if he didn't know what Urizen was going to do, he is at least partially culpable due to people dying at the hands of Urizen.

Secondly, I take umbrage with treating Vergil and Urizen separately as individuals. If we're accepting V as Vergil's inner goodness, then I don't see Urizen as anything but Vergil's inner darkness and that on some level, whether consciously or not he did want it and now without any inhibitors to hold him back Urizen could embrace Vergil's evil desires.
 

Veloran

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First of all, it was because of his selfish desires that he created Urizen. Even if he didn't know what Urizen was going to do, he is at least partially culpable due to people dying at the hands of Urizen.
So Sparda is to blame for Vergil, then? Because here you're effectively suggesting that a parent is to be culpable for the crimes of their child.

Secondly, I take umbrage with treating Vergil and Urizen separately as individuals. If we're accepting V as Vergil's inner goodness, then I don't see Urizen as anything but Vergil's inner darkness and that on some level, whether consciously or not he did want it and now without any inhibitors to hold him back Urizen could embrace Vergil's evil desires.
In the game V and Urizen are described as "distinct beings". We might say they're made up of parts of Vergil, but the whole main theme of the game being "qualia" precludes them from being him while they still had separate consciousness and perspectives. So, even if we say V is Vergil's humanity and goodness while Urizen is Vergil's demonic side and lust for power, that doesn't make them him.
 

LordOfDarkness

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@Veloran - What?

No my dude it definitely makes them him. V is Vergil’s good and Urizen is Vergil’s dark. If you’re saying they’re not him then how or why would V merging with Urizen “restore” Vergil?

Dante had Urizen beat and in realising that he (Vergil) was going to die, V merged himself with Urizen. Following this Nero asks what the hell happened to V and Dante replies “He returned”.

V, Urizen, Vergil. They are all and the same. So yes, they are him.
 

Foxtrot94

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V, Urizen, Vergil. They are all and the same. So yes, they are him.
I disagree. You said it yourself. V is his good and Urizen is his dark. But Vergil as a whole isn't purely evil or purely good. Either half of him would say or do things that he wouldn't. Vergil isn't as devoid of emotions and as extreme as Urizen, and not as emphatic and good willed as V.

The two are aspects of him, yes, but amplified in one way or the other because of the lack of the other half to act as counterbalance.
So no, I don't agree that you can blame Vergil for Urizen's actions (aside from blaming him in an indirect way as Lain suggested, as in Urizen's deeds were the result of Vergil's splitting himself), because Vergil is NOT just Urizen.

It's simple math, really. 2+3=5, but 5 isn't either 2 or 3.
 

LordOfDarkness

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@Foxtrot94

The game literally shows us that they are both just him. V and Urizen are Vergil no matter what resulted from him separating himself into two separate forms. He’s completely accountable for his own actions even if those actions are an indirect result of what either half of him commits.

V was his good.
Urizen his dark.

V realising that if Dante were to kill Urizen that would essentially destroy his demon/dark side meant that V had to merge himself back to Urizen to reform Vergil.

It’s right there in the game. But feel free to disagree with me.
 

Picard

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I'm not sure Vergil can actually be blamed for Urizen taking advantage of the tree.

For one thing, it's implied the tree's growth is a natural occurrence that happens on a set timeframe. And while Nero suggests Yamato is at fault for things (IE that Urizen opened the portal himself), could be that Sparda's seal was just so degraded after millennia that it could no longer stop the Qliphoth from breaking through. Given demons already had a history of being able to attack Red Grave, it seems likely it was particularly weak there. I'd even go as far as to say that the reason Sparda settled in the area around that time was because the Qliphoth was due to appear in the near-future.

Moreover, it seems obvious that Urizen's actions were never Vergil's plans. He intended to separate the weakness and corruption from himself just to fight Dante, but when Urizen was born he didn't actually care much at all about Dante. Instead he tried to invade and rule over both worlds, something that was explicitly not Vergil's prerogative. It seems as though Vergil had no idea that Urizen would deviate so much from his own desires, and that V trying to stop him is highly indicative of that.
Yes, that is the thing. Vergil and Urizen are not the same person, so blaming Vergil for Urizen's actions makes no sense.

I disagree that Vergil holds no blame. First of all, it was because of his selfish desires that he created Urizen. Even if he didn't know what Urizen was going to do, he is at least partially culpable due to people dying at the hands of Urizen.

Secondly, I take umbrage with treating Vergil and Urizen separately as individuals. If we're accepting V as Vergil's inner goodness, then I don't see Urizen as anything but Vergil's inner darkness and that on some level, whether consciously or not he did want it and now without any inhibitors to hold him back Urizen could embrace Vergil's evil desires.
Yes, V is Vergil's inner goodness, and U is Vergil's inner darkness, but neither of them is Vergil. Vergil deserves neither praise for V's actions nor blame for Urizen's, beyond the act of separating them in the first place. And on that count, he was quite desparate, and probably not thinking clearly.

@Veloran - What?

No my dude it definitely makes them him. V is Vergil’s good and Urizen is Vergil’s dark. If you’re saying they’re not him then how or why would V merging with Urizen “restore” Vergil?

Dante had Urizen beat and in realising that he (Vergil) was going to die, V merged himself with Urizen. Following this Nero asks what the hell happened to V and Dante replies “He returned”.

V, Urizen, Vergil. They are all and the same. So yes, they are him.
They are him, but neither one of them is him. If you separated good and evil sides of any human, you would end up with the essentially same outcome: a goody-good and a murderous psychopath, because good side would not be there to balance bad and vice-versa. The only difference from V and Urizen would be the scale. Person is a balance of their good and bad sides, if they are separated that person is dead.
 

LordOfDarkness

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“They are him but neither one of them is him”. Essentially that just means that they are both him and you agreed and disagreed in part of what I originally said. In any sense they are all just simply Vergil no matter how you view it. The game’s entire story practically builds up to that very fact.

As illogical as it may sound for any result of V or Urizen’s actions being Vergil’s fault that is still very much so the case. Vergil himself chose to split himself and become two separate forms and as an inderect circumstance of this he is still soulfully responsible for anything that happens. Because who else is responsible for Vergil’s good or dark side? Who else is to blame for their actions? Who is essentially left to look at and blame after 5’s events?

Vergil. Or should we blame Urizen or V when they no longer exist (except they do because they reformed into Vergil) No because that wouldn’t make any sense at all.

The only person left standing that is or was accountable for anything is Vergil. That’s all.
 

Picard

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“They are him but neither one of them is him”. Essentially that just means that they are both him and you agreed and disagreed in part of what I originally said. In any sense they are all just simply Vergil no matter how you view it. The game’s entire story practically builds up to that very fact.

As illogical as it may sound for any result of V or Urizen’s actions being Vergil’s fault that is still very much so the case. Vergil himself chose to split himself and become two separate forms and as an inderect circumstance of this he is still soulfully responsible for anything that happens. Because who else is responsible for Vergil’s good or dark side? Who else is to blame for their actions? Who is essentially left to look at and blame after 5’s events?

Vergil. Or should we blame Urizen or V when they no longer exist (except they do because they reformed into Vergil) No because that wouldn’t make any sense at all.

The only person left standing that is or was accountable for anything is Vergil. That’s all.
That is why I said specifically "...beyond the very act of separating them in the first place". He definitely does deserve blame for their actions, but he did not perform them directly.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

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Lol That's like a shooter trying to blame the gun for the crime since the gun did the actual killing
 

Foxtrot94

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Lol That's like a shooter trying to blame the gun for the crime since the gun did the actual killing
Not the same thing. The shooter still had a clear intent of killing and the gun was just a tool. Vergil's intention when he split himself wasn't to cause some mass destruction and murder through Urizen, but just to survive in some way, shape or form, as his flesh was literally crumbling.

So if you wanna blame him for indirectly causing the Qliphoth, fine, but you can't add actual intent to that as well.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

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I was making a joke , my point is the actions of the gun which being a separate entity still fall on the person who's decision it was to wield it

Just like the actions of urizen are still in a way the fault of Vergil for setting him free to do those things in the first place

So the shooter saying well I myself didn't end that person's life , the bullet technically did

Is the same as Vergil saying well I didn't directly kill those people , but they are still collateral for an action he took
 

LordOfDarkness

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That is why I said specifically "...beyond the very act of separating them in the first place". He definitely does deserve blame for their actions, but he did not perform them directly.
Yes you are absolutely right about that no doubt. I’ve come to look at it differently now. No matter what their (V’s or Urizen’s) plans or intentions were those are beyond Vergil’s control as you say. I suppose in a sense you can blame him at the same time as not really being able to blame him.

It really is a Catch-22. How can Vergil be held accountable for HIS actions when they weren’t HIS own?

Therein lies our predicament of the situation. He is to blame at the same time he really isn’t.
 

Lain

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It really is a Catch-22. How can Vergil be held accountable for HIS actions when they weren’t HIS own?
Therein lies our predicament of the situation. He is to blame at the same time he really isn’t.
It certainly is an interesting moral dilemma, and I would like to throw into the mix a point I had (jokingly) previously made - namely that Vergil was the true "winner" in this game. I had made the comment in jest, but after mulling it over it raises an unusual question in that because Vergil had directly benefited from Urizen's acts of mass murder, does that in someway make him implicit or at least party to Urizen's crimes?

I'm not sure I can answer that one...
 

Picard

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Lol That's like a shooter trying to blame the gun for the crime since the gun did the actual killing
But shooter actually knows what will happen, and gun has no free will of his own. But did Vergil have reason to believe that his demonic side will automatically become full-on evil? Or he simply didn't even consider the question, and acted out of desperation? That is a difference - essentially, are his actions murder, or manslaughter?
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

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Lol u obviously missed the part where I said that line was a joke?

I then explained what I really meant
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

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Deaths due to negligence or indirectly through actions you have taken , are still something yo are responsible for

Vergil is not blameless , he was so desperate to beat Dante he split himself, his primary goal was to get power and beat his brother, v says so himself

He didn't think about people dying or anything else , knowing his demon side strived for power it is obvious people would die


If he was planning to use the qliphoth from the beginning, then he actively knew it would need human blood
 
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