Out of Style - Dante's Controls

Innsmouth

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Can you guys just send a PM to each other and make friends? We're all DMC lovers here, right?

Personally, I love DMC3's combat the best. DMC4 was great for the time, but DmC was in some ways better, some ways worse. Although, I haven't properly played DMC4 or DmC in recent years so I can't remember off the top of my head why to me they don't IMO measure up to the DMC3 control scheme. I still love DMC4, DmC, and you guys. <3
Generally I wouldn't mind but honestly after waiting 10 years for game to return to the old form, It's pretty annyoing that there is a need to spread negativity around old series. Also sorry, it's just my personal opinion, but where I live "it's old and dumb and should be shot in the sun" has nothing to do with any valid "criticism. I leave at that.
 

LordOfDarkness

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This discussion, is quite frankly completely pointless. Somebody don't like control scheme, while somebody likes it. It's just matter of personal preference with each side neither right or wrong.
You know that’s the basis for pretty much all discussions? People that share your opinion or simply have a different opinion altogether. That doesn’t warrant a topic ‘pointless’ because you don’t think the same way, and your posts aren’t adding anything of relevancy.

In future if you don’t agree or don’t think there’s a point to discussing something, then please, don’t jump into a thread where others are getting their points across just to tell them ‘their conversations are pointless’.

Thank you.
 

TWOxACROSS

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Can you guys just sent a PM to each other and make friends? We're all DMC lovers here, right?

Personally, I love DMC3's combat the best. DMC4 was great for the time, but DmC was in some ways better, some ways worse. Although, I haven't properly played DMC4 or DmC in recent years so I can't remember off the top of my head why to me they don't IMO measure up to the DMC3 control scheme. I still love DMC4, DmC, and you guys. <3
That's curious that you find DMC3's better, given that DMC4's is somewhat of a mild update to it. Is it that you felt certain things were missing for you?

Generally I wouldn't mind but honestly after waiting 10 years for game to return to the old form, It's pretty annyoing that there is a need to spread negativity around old series. Also sorry, it's just my personal opinion, but where I live "it's old and dumb and should be shot in the sun" has nothing to do with any valid "criticism. I leave at that.
I'm being facetious, lighten up. Hell, I'll even put a li'l addendum at the end of my first post to highlight the facetiousness.

I'm not spreading negativity, I'm opening a discussion about a curiosity of why the controls are the way they are (or may continue to be) for a single character after they've made so many others with an updated configuration, born from my distaste of DMC4 Dante's controls, simply because I find everyone else's to be better.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, you could give some non-passive-aggressive replies about my most recent post that talks about how Nero's sword combos, consolidated on a single button, match/surpass Dante's with his old controls.

If you don't want to contribute to the discussion, then there's plenty of other threads around.
 

DarkSlayer54

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So why does Dante use, by all accounts, an "outdated" control scheme?

And if people can learn to play Nero, Vergil, Lady, Trish, and DmC Dante - they can surely figure out a better-configured classic Dante.
Removing the style system would be a great middle-ground for me, DmC's control scheme being my favourite so far. The style system was by far my biggest issue with Dante. Such a massive learning curve to select the right style mid combat.
 

TWOxACROSS

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Removing the style system would be a great middle-ground for me, DmC's control scheme being my favourite so far. The style system was by far my biggest issue with Dante. Such a massive learning curve to select the right style mid combat.
I'd love to see a middle-ground between Nero and DmC's controls. I love DmC's controls as well, they just feel good, especially for switching weapons and "modes," but of course it's not for everyone, and DmC's controls work for DmC because of how they incorporated the three modes. With DMC5, the idea would be to see them mold Dante's massive amount of abilities around Nero's configuration, foregoing the need for Styles.

All in all, it sort of comes back to the immutable fact that complexity =/= depth. Dante could be just as deep and fulfilling to play, without having to have such complex and overly-complicated controls.
 

TWOxACROSS

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I wouldn't mind it being something like I hold a button and hit triangle to use Swordmaster moves, or hold another button and hit triangle to do Gunslinger moves.
So DmC-style mode switches, but for the Styles? That'd ruffle some feathers.
 

Innsmouth

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I'm being facetious, lighten up. Hell, I'll even put a li'l addendum at the end of my first post to highlight the facetiousness.

I'm not spreading negativity, I'm opening a discussion about a curiosity of why the controls are the way they are (or may continue to be) for a single character after they've made so many others with an updated configuration, born from my distaste of DMC4 Dante's controls, simply because I find everyone else's to be better.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, you could give some non-passive-aggressive replies about my most recent post that talks about how Nero's sword combos, consolidated on a single button, match/surpass Dante's with his old controls.

If you don't want to contribute to the discussion, then there's plenty of other threads around.
If you don't want to spread negativity, than maybe you should mind your wording, because my initial impression was simply attempt to throw stones at the original control scheme without any will to debate it. As for discussion.

Well by saying that DMC4 Dante controls are so outdated, that would pretty much mean that controls in the whole series "bad" because it was pretty much pinnacle of the Dante's controls evolution. They got rid of the limited style system instead applying it to the d-pad, which allowed to use those styles on the fly. Which in my opinion was much better decision than controls in DmC, for simple reason that it doesn't demanded to hold a button all the time to switch between different states.

Actually as far as switching between states goes, DmC took Lords of Shadows system and make step backward because of need to hold buttons instead of taping them.
As for weapons circling, it would only work if they limit weapons like in new GoW or LoS2, by reducing their amount to the amount you can use with d-pad. Which once again would be shame because it would mean limited amount of melee / projectile weapons. Honestly Ninja gaiden had many more weapons to choose from and used scroling, but it was never in the way and I think it's much better than MGR approach with "open menu to switch weapons", because it's the only definitive no go.

And in my opinion one thing that is definitive no go for 3d action game is double forward input. In that regard, I think forward+attack button should be more than enough. The only thing I would like to be optimised from original Dante'S control scheme is his trickster moves. Because it would be nice to have dodge ability all the time. Or at least give some sort of roll move to dodge to sides.
 

absolitude

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hmm.. this gives an idea, 4 styles for dante, need only two shoulder buttons: tap l, r and hold l, r.. tap will be for the more commonly used styles

d pad for weapons.. two devil arms for each three pads, and one pad for three guns.. tap any other arms pad where the used arm isn't a group of to return to rebellion.

that's like 7 melees and 3 guns

huh, does this sound complicated? well maybe i should shut up then
 

berto

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I really don't like the style system that much. It was fun for a while but I haven't really warmed up to it for a long time. When I mention that, though, people get really defensive and angry that I'd dare to say and then they post a combo vid and demand I tell the what other game would allow them to do all that but, frankly, it's not practical nor is it necessary.

Reminds me of this little tidbit:



Yeah, the combat is deep but why does it have to be complicated? Overly complex also means inaccessible.
 
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heatlancer

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Dante's controls in 4 did not feel intuitive, not like 3 at all, where he played amazing, mainly because the styles didnt occupy a button. If they can't make it more seamless they should just return it to choosing the style before the missions when playing Dante.

I greatly prefered playing Nero in 4.
 

Innsmouth

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I wonder what was real difference between DMC3 and DMC4 in terms of control? In DMC3 we had menu mapped to D-pad, which in my opnion isn't necessary. Why adding Styles to d-pad makes it more complex? Basically you can always just turn any Style you want without menu navigation.
 

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DMC4 was actually the first Devil May Cry game I played. I wound up going backwards from there (only getting partway through DMC1 and not at all through 2; I might rectify that in the future. We'll see.) As I was a newb to the series, I can attest that going from Nero to Dante was incredibly jarring at first. Dante felt heavier, slower, and it took me quite a few more tries to get through some of the harder missions--and yeah, the Style switching thing played havoc on me until I realized what the hell was happening.

That said, I did eventually get a good feel for him, and after awhile, switching back and forth between him and Nero became intuitive. I guess that probably came down to muscle-memory, because I honestly didn't need to think about how to do X move with Nero vs. X move with Dante.

Overall though, I do agree that the Style system--at least such as it is--might be outdated. I'm sure it would take some getting used to, but a change in Dante's control implementation really could be a good thing. Heaven knows I'm not a hardcore gamer 100% of the time (just with select games), and it would be nice if the games didn't cater to the snobby elite who breathe, sleep, and crap gaming on a regular basis. If they could put something together that satisfies both the hardcore and casual gamers, and if it makes for an overall more enjoyable gaming experience, I'm all for it.
 

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@TWOxACROSS When I started reading your original post, I was ready to disagree completely. Thanks to the Style system, Dante is capable of pulling off more moves than Nero or DmC Dante. More moves means more combos which means more fun! But now you've got me thinking if that needs to be the case. I really enjoy Styles, but your analysis has me thinking if it needs to come back in DMC5, or if there's a way to rework Dante's controls that gets rid of styles but keeps all the awesomeness. Your ideas sounds pretty good! Thank you for the post. You've given me a lot to think about. :thumbsup:

I do wonder if Capcom will bring Styles back. It would be the easy thing to do. But from this first trailer, we know things are going to be pretty different. Itsuno did say this is the best game he's ever made. While that could very well just be a hype tool, I'm hopeful he really is creating something amazing. And lifting gameplay from 4 and plopping it down into a new game wouldn't really be that.

EDIT: WHAT IF!! Instead of the D-pad being used for Styles, that was how you switched weapons? And what if you were free to assign all guns or all swords? Swordmaster and Gunslinger are basically "do you want to specialize in swords or guns?" If you could assign whatever combo of swords or guns you want to the D-pad, then you could easily specialize in one or the other, but without Styles. HM! Using the D-pad for that might be clunky, but I think it would over all be easier to get the hang of than using it to switch styles.
 
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TWOxACROSS

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Well by saying that DMC4 Dante controls are so outdated, that would pretty much mean that controls in the whole series "bad" because it was pretty much pinnacle of the Dante's controls evolution. They got rid of the limited style system instead applying it to the d-pad, which allowed to use those styles on the fly. Which in my opinion was much better decision than controls in DmC, for simple reason that it doesn't demanded to hold a button all the time to switch between different states.
Don't misunderstand, I say "outdated" only because every character they made since Dante has had a much more uniformed scheme. There were very obvious things about DMC that have remained a core component between all of them (Dante included), but Dante is the only one that has a unique system that they have apparently never wanted to emulate in any other character. The closest is Lady where she has specialized gun actions on O depending on what weapon she has, an echo of Dante's Styles.

There's no intention to call DMC's entire control scheme "bad" because that...makes no sense? Because I spend most of my initial post talking up how amazing Nero feels to play.

Actually as far as switching between states goes, DmC took Lords of Shadows system and make step backward because of need to hold buttons instead of taping them.
I'd slightly disagree, given holding a button is right behind simply tapping one on an ease-of-use scale, and in some ways offers more agency because you know full well what is currently at your disposal because you are holding that button in. It doesn't make much of a difference, and it sounds silly to hear given that DMC as a whole requires holding R1 for so many things, and in terms of Nero, R1 determines whether we do Snatch or Buster.

As for weapons circling, it would only work if they limit weapons like in new GoW or LoS2, by reducing their amount to the amount you can use with d-pad. Which once again would be shame because it would mean limited amount of melee / projectile weapons. Honestly Ninja gaiden had many more weapons to choose from and used scroling, but it was never in the way and I think it's much better than MGR approach with "open menu to switch weapons", because it's the only definitive no go.
I suddenly wonder if a good middle-ground would be holding in the weapon switch button, but instead of cycling, the weapons would be assigned to the D-Pad. So up to four devil arms and four firearms could be equipped, then you just like, hold L2 to access the devil arms, and R2 for firearms.

The only thing I would like to be optimised from original Dante'S control scheme is his trickster moves. Because it would be nice to have dodge ability all the time. Or at least give some sort of roll move to dodge to sides.
Given how I was mucking about with where actions could go by removing Styles, all of Trickster's moves (and maybe Royal Guard's) could be mapped to O. Hell, they could even keep in the side rolls with R1+X and have those give more points in perfect avoidance, or something. I dunno, options~

I really don't like the style system that much. It was fun for a while but I haven't really warmed up to it for a long time. When I mention that, though, people get really defensive and angry that I'd date to say and then they post a combo vid and demand I tell the what other game would allow them to do all that but it's not practical nor is it necessary.

Reminds me of this little tid bit:



Yeah, the combat is deep but why does it have to be complicated? Overly complex also means inaccessible.
Ah! This was the exact picture I was trying to find, but I didn't have it on this computer. I think it might actually be mine haha.

I'm still just running up against the question of "Why Dante plays this way" aside from nostalgia. There is evidence of characters playing smoother (read: less complicated), and even from theorycrafting using those characters' controls there's a lot of untapped potential that could be utilized to get all four of Dante's Styles on his controls without relegating it to what it used to be on.
 

Innsmouth

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I'd slightly disagree, given holding a button is right behind simply tapping one on an ease-of-use scale, and in some ways offers more agency because you know full well what is currently at your disposal because you are holding that button in. It doesn't make much of a difference, and it sounds silly to hear given that DMC as a whole requires holding R1 for so many things, and in terms of Nero, R1 determines whether we do Snatch or Buster.
That being said, I didn't really enjoyed that part of Nero controls. I think it worked good in LoS where taping switched modes and you could retain the ability until you tap back. That prevented from complex moves involing 4+ buttons to input while holding direction button

I suddenly wonder if a good middle-ground would be holding in the weapon switch button, but instead of cycling, the weapons would be assigned to the D-Pad. So up to four devil arms and four firearms could be equipped, then you just like, hold L2 to access the devil arms, and R2 for firearms.
I think it's basically Ninja Gaiden pattern only it scrolled through items.
I'm still just running up against the question of "Why Dante plays this way" aside from nostalgia. There is evidence of characters playing smoother (read: less complicated), and even from theorycrafting using those characters' controls there's a lot of untapped potential that could be utilized to get all four of Dante's Styles on his controls without relegating it to what it used to be on.
Actually the only way Nero didn't got similar controls, because he didn't had any new weapons. He was basically limited to one single weapon outside of Yamato in the end. Tbh, As much as his snatch was fun to use, I was missing on diversity of Dante's moves.
Overall I can understand argument about easier to use moves, but I would like to avoid the case with new GoW where all moves awere TO easy to pull, so it made game pretty repetitiv in terms of combat.
 

DarkSlayer54

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That being said, I didn't really enjoyed that part of Nero controls. I think it worked good in LoS where taping switched modes and you could retain the ability until you tap back. That prevented from complex moves involing 4+ buttons to input while holding direction button


I think it's basically Ninja Gaiden pattern only it scrolled through items.
Actually the only way Nero didn't got similar controls, because he didn't had any new weapons. He was basically limited to one single weapon outside of Yamato in the end. Tbh, As much as his snatch was fun to use, I was missing on diversity of Dante's moves.
Overall I can understand argument about easier to use moves, but I would like to avoid the case with new GoW where all moves awere TO easy to pull, so it made game pretty repetitiv in terms of combat.
I don't think there's such a thing as "too easy" to pull off moves. Imo, all that matters is that all the moves are present.

If mechanical complexity is desired, you have jump cancelling to dive into.
 

Innsmouth

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I don't think there's such a thing as "too easy" to pull off moves. Imo, all that matters is that all the moves are present.

If mechanical complexity is desired, you have jump cancelling to dive into.
Of course they are. For example Musou games are very easy to play, but became repetitive, due to diving into simple buttonmashing. Also since I already on topic of new GoW, my bud dropped the game exactly because it gave all moves at once in the combat. For non HnS players it's just an overkill, if game gives you lot ablities at once.
 

DarkSlayer54

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Of course they are. For example Musou games are very easy to play, but became repetitive, due to diving into simple buttonmashing. Also since I already on topic of new GoW, my bud dropped the game exactly because it gave all moves at once in the combat. For non HnS players it's just an overkill, if game gives you lot ablities at once.
I've never heard of Musou games, but if it's repetitive then it's more than just simple controls. With DMC in particular, being able to more effectively pull off moves doesn't change the dynamics at all. It would still be the very same game, except the mechanical complexity was lowered.

I agree, giving all moves at once can easily be overwhelming, but that's another issue entirely.
 
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