Out of Style - Dante's Controls

TWOxACROSS

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Let's lay it all out there. I think Dante's control scheme, as it is now (of DMC4), is old and busted. My point here is that I would hope that in DMC5 they finally update Dante's controls to be more updated and in line with the other characters.

Consider, when you start DMC4, you play several hours as a brand new character with a fairly logical control scheme, where combos are all on the same button (what a revelation!); Square is everything for your gun; and O is your Devil Bringer for grabs, pulls, and grapple-based specials. It's all very streamlined and intuitive - this is your button for this kind of ability: sword, gun, or demon arm, complete with proper inputs for special moves that use those elements of our character. Then we transfer to Dante, whose control scheme hearkens back to DMC3 and the use of Styles.

Suddenly, after several hours of jamming on Triangle for all my sword combo needs on the ground and in the air, I'm accidentally pulling out Helm Breakers, because Dante's Aerial Rave requires me to be in the proper Style and press a completely different button. If I want to do a rapid-fire Honeycomb, I have to mash O. It all leads back to O. Obviously the argument is "Wull, it makes sense once you get used to it," which is true. Of course I'll figure that some special abilities are tied to the Style button, but that doesn't make it intuitive. Like...at all. It's an archaic design, and one I hope Dante will explicitly move away from because it's just really dumb.

Disregarding the lack of improvement in controls to Dante in DMC4, the two most recent games carried with them some of the most intuitively designed control schemes with Nero and m!Dante. DmC reorganized a lot of the control scheme to be much more flexible, but even then it lacked a few inputs that could have added even more depth and abilities, primarily, things that we were given with Nero in DMC4, like back-to-forward inputs, and both Triangle+O and Square+X inputs, even combinations of those with R1 and directions. I'm not saying that DMC5's Dante should adhere to a DmC-oriented design, but the fact of the matter is that DmC's entire control scheme was another version of the already updated controls we had with Nero.

There is absolutely no reason for Dante to continue the use of a restrictive, convoluted Style mechanic, even on the fly, other than misguided, misplaced, and mistaken nostalgia. Even DMC2 offered Dante more moves over his predecessor without relegating them to a single button and being in a proper "stance."

If you're still with me, instead of already thinking I'm a know-nothing fool and jumping down to the replies to tell me so, let's take a look at how Dante could be updated without a loss of his core functionality...

Aerial Rave - Obviously, just put that dang ol' thing right on Triangle like Nero and m!Dante
Drive - Still just hold Triangle to let it loose
Helm Breaker - Similar to Nero, it's an R1+directional input
Danse Macabre - Could be placed on Triangle+O (or with an R1+directional input), or just...forget it because it's an auto-combo and I thought we didn't like DmC because it was "too easy to do things"
...this also opens up Dante to have his own pause combo in the air. Why didn't he ever get that until DmC...?

Dash, Sky Star, Mustang, and Wall Hike - Could literally, like DMC2, be placed on O as a proprietary dodge button

Gunslinger moves - DmC utilized Square+X for special gun moves, which were also used in DMC4 for different attacks. Rainstorm could easily be placed there. Honeycomb could be an R1+back+Square+X input. We can get the shotgun's Gunstinger in there with R1+forward+Square+X as well. Twosome Time is...well...I love this ability, but it's also kinda easy to forget. I didn't miss it in DmC, or it could still just be put on Square+X on the ground, as an auto-fire that plants you, and you point in a direction. We can bring back Wild Stomp, because that was cool, and Free Ride. Maybe forego Honeycomb altogether as a stationary rapid fire ability and simply place the concept back on jamming Square like in DMC3 for way more bullets than usual. Or better yet, make rapidly jamming Square activate a Crazy Combo-like effect to lead into Honeycomb, like Million Stabs used to.

That's three of the primary Styles placed intuitively around the face buttons, and utilizing input mechanics that were apparently entirely acceptable when used in DMC4(se). I all but ignored Royal Guard because it's...forgettable. DMC3, DMC4, and DmC allowed us to block and parry without needing a separate button, just perfectly-timed swings. Or, Bayonetta (another lauded action game) uses a simple forward input at the right time to parry. OR~ Metal Gear Rising (another lauded action game) uses parries by tilting at the incoming attack and pressing the attack key; Dante in DMC3 even had a weird back-kick he could to as a quick interrupt if you did a similar input to MGR's. It'd be like Table Hopper, buuuut for parrying.

Speaking of Table Hopper, as cool as that is...maybe...not? Being frank, side rolls are trash. You get two and a half directions for i-frame movement, which requires me to hold R1 and then ensure that when I push a direction, I'll actually dodge, given that I might lock-on to the wrong enemy and my tilt could be uselessly counted as a forward input. I'd love to be able to dodge forward, past an enemy's attack and start hitting their flank because, well hey, their business end is their front. Objectively, an omni-directional dodge that requires a direction and button input is better than DMC's "lock-on, pick a side, then move in one of two directions" side-roll. Bayonetta has it, Nier: Automata has it, DMC2 has it, all without sacrificing design. Table Hopper is nice, but getting a great dodge out of the games crap dodge mechanic is...not great.

Then, there's Dante's equipment. Cycling through more than two pieces of gear in a fast-paced action game is dumb. It's another layer to keep track of, and in DMC4, Dante's **** took two entire buttons for cycling, that's primo real estate guys! Let's at least cut this down to one button (saaaay, R2) by pulling a Bayonetta and having equipment templates of "gun and devil arm" that are swapped between. We can only use one weapon (sword or gun) at a time anyway, so tapping one button to switch to a desired weapon set isn't any different than switching specifically to a desired sword or gun. You might even save yourself a click if the next weapon you want to use is already part of a set you swapped to. Or...just put our weapons on the d-pad, because now they're freed up.

This leaves L2 open for something. Nero has Exceed on L2, but Dante can't rev his sword up, so that could still be used for some other proprietary actions, like maybe letting him use Royal Guard abilities to block and counter if you're so inclined, or as a "mode switch" like in DmC for more moves. I dunno, the world's is oyster.

Ultimately, I just think that Dante's control scheme is old and dumb and it should be shot into the sun. There's absolutely no reason why all of his badass abilities can't just be reorganized to logical places on the base scheme, not when Nero exists and proves its possible, or...y'know, that DmC Dante did the exact same thing without losing much substance. I hope beyond hope that they finally drag Dante kicking and screaming into 2018, instead of letting him party like its 2008. There's a better way.

Now you may commence telling me I'm wrong and that I need to git gud and that's the only reason why I care about the UX design.

ADDENDUM: I do not seriously feel that Dante's controls should be "shot into the sun," but I do find them subpar when compared to every other character's, and honestly every other action game's, intuitive controls. I get by just fine playing as Dante and getting those oh-so-important S ranks, I just can't fathom why the controls are so wonky, and wonder/worry if he'll control the same in DMC5, or if they'll update him given everything they've done since DMC4's initial release.
 
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DarkSlayer54

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The best thing about DmC's controls were that it had an amazing learning curve. First with Rebellion, then onto the Angel/Demon styles, and finally onto weapon switching. It was composed of multiple stepping stones, each one slightly more difficult than the last.

That's what I would love to see return, personally... except have them be light/heavy, instead of angel/demon. In any case, definitely agree. Although, for me the whole DMC4 / DMC3 control schemes feel so outdated overall... not a fan of them in the slightest. Doesn't matter which character I'm using - I'm always craving more control over them.
 

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Oh yeah, and definitely for the love of God give us better jumping control! I don't like buying an engagement ring for my jump arc. If your game is going to have any semblance of platforming, it needs controllable jumping. DmC's was amazing for both platforming and combat.
 
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Innsmouth

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oh look, here to spread negativity, because we all needed it. :meh:
 

Erian1Mortal

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I made a similar topic a while back, simply gonna copy and paste that here:
  • I'd put weapon switching on the D-Pad (since I thought it worked well in DmC)
  • I'd cut Royal Guard and Trickster (that way switching between Gunslinger and Swordmaster is still on the D-Pad).
  • That way we have 2 shoulder buttons free, one of those could be used for Guarding, and another could either be used for taunting.
  • Trickster moves would be upgrades to Dante's basic evasive manuevers (Dash replacing dodge roll etc.)
  • Optionally I'd put 2 Styles on one Button (Royal Guard/Trickster for up and Gunslinger/Swordmaster for down)
 

absolitude

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if they really incorporate DmC in 5, no doubt the mechanics will be more or less "approachable"

i'm seriously still having trouble with DMC4 dante, and too lazy to get the hang of it, especially like you mentioned, i am already too used to nero's play --altho the problem there was he lacked in movesets, maybe this was the reason for all the outdated button schemes?

but, the common saying is that dante in 4 was for the experienced while nero approaches the more casual. knowing that, maybe capcom sticks to the same concept and leaves nero and v to be more approachable/up to date/DmC incorporated/casual/hell, easier to control.

i would personally wish they use "easier" mechanics, hate to have dante in the game yet makes me so uninspired on playing him

in the end, is it possible to have easier controls and still having variety of movesets? --no expert in DMC or DmC, but i'm seeing it in videos when comparing them
 

TWOxACROSS

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oh look, here to spread negativity, because we all needed it. :meh:
Hi! Shut up.

if they really incorporate DmC in 5, no doubt the mechanics will be more or less "approachable"

i'm seriously still having trouble with DMC4 dante, and too lazy to get the hang of it, especially like you mentioned, i am already too used to nero's play --altho the problem there was he lacked in movesets, maybe this was the reason for all the outdated button schemes?
There's definitely an element to Nero lacking compared to the guy with four-ish extra ability archetypes. Nero had no extra gun abilities outside of his three levels of charged shot, which were pretty cool in their own right. He had a lot of sword combos, possibly comparable to Swordmaster Dante, and his evasive maneuvers were side rolls and Table Hopper, which is...basically a better side roll under certain circumstances. Nero did, however, have Buster for special grab animations with enemies, which Dante didn't have, which I miss once I'm not Nero. Yet, looking at how Nero might be more approachable in his gameplay, he already reorganizes some of Dante's Style-based mechanics into his normal functionality - primarily Swordmaster, which is probably the easiest to consolidate onto a single button.

but, the common saying is that dante in 4 was for the experienced while nero approaches the more casual. knowing that, maybe capcom sticks to the same concept and leaves nero and v to be more approachable/up to date/DmC incorporated/casual/hell, easier to control.
This is the rough part though, honestly. It makes sense that Dante hearkens back to DMC3 because he's for veterans of DMC3, but how does that help a newcomer? Especially how does that help a player going through the story where they have to shift gears and learn an entirely new character halfway through because the narrative takes Nero out of the spotlight for a bit? Hell, I've played all the DMCs prior, and Dante still becomes a jarring transition because Nero plays so smooth and intuitively.

i would personally wish they use "easier" mechanics, hate to have dante in the game yet makes me so uninspired on playing him

in the end, is it possible to have easier controls and still having variety of movesets? --no expert in DMC or DmC, but i'm seeing it in videos when comparing them
I would think so, since Nero and DmC already show how we can consolidate and reorganize abilities without having to reach for a Style selection mechanic. Nero and DmC also, despite their improvements to the controls, didn't go full tilt on things like inputs, there's a lot of untapped potential. Not to toot my own horn, but just with what I outlined in the initial post, it was inspired by Nero and DmC, and it'd seem easy enough to place all those skills we love on a more intuitive control scheme, and it even left an entire button with nothin' on it.
 
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absolitude

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There's definitely an element to Nero lacking compared to the guy with four-ish extra ability archetypes. Nero had no extra gun abilities outside of his three levels of charged shot, which were pretty cool in their own right. He had a lot of sword combos, possibly comparable to Swordmaster Dante, and his evasive maneuvers were side rolls and Table Hopper, which is...basically a better side roll under certain circumstances. Nero did, however, have Buster for special grab animations with enemies, which Dante didn't have, which I miss once I'm not Nero. Yet, looking at how Nero might be more approachable in his gameplay, he already reorganizes some of Dante's Style-based mechanics into his normal functionality - primarily Swordmaster, which is probably the easiest to consolidate onto a single button.



This is the rough part though, honestly. It makes sense that Dante hearkens back to DMC3 because he's for veterans of DMC3, but how does that help a newcomer? Especially how does that help a player going through the story where they have to shift gears and learn an entirely new character halfway through because the narrative takes Nero out of the spotlight for a bit? Hell, I've played all the DMCs prior, and Dante still becomes a jarring transition because Nero plays so smooth and intuitively.



I would think so, since Nero and DmC already show how we can consolidate and reorganize abilities without having to reach for a Style selection mechanic. Nero and DmC also, despite their improvements to the controls, also didn't go full tilt on things like inputs, there's a lot of untapped potential. Not to toot my own horn, but just with what I outlined in the initial post, it was inspired by Nero and DmC, and it'd seem easy enough to place all those skills we love on a more intuitive control scheme, and it even left an entire button with nothin' on it.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

i suppose a thoroughly gameplay trailer will define this game for the fans, i'm ready for anything. and with itsuno so confident with this game that it'll appeal both fans, i believe it'll be good.

but yeah, i feel like they'll stick keeping dante for veterans, but i also feel like they'll make a more 'finger friendly' for the wider audience they've been aiming since DmC.

oh, i'm sure most forget about this, but they did have way with dante for newcomer with that weird auto-combo mechanism, which i'm pretty sure even the most casual ones don't use, cuz i don't.
 

DarkSlayer54

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oh, i'm sure most forget about this, but they did have way with dante for newcomer with that weird auto-combo mechanism, which i'm pretty sure even the most casual ones don't use, cuz i don't.
I never even tried it, and I forgot it existed.

Instead of an auto-combo, I hope they give us cheats / modifiers. What I'd love to see in particular, would be infinite air hikes / air dashes. Modifiers like that would let me dabble in aerial combat a lot more, and for me at least... it would be far more fun than to deal with something as finicky as JC'ing.
 

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i suppose a thoroughly gameplay trailer will define this game for the fans, i'm ready for anything. and with itsuno so confident with this game that it'll appeal both fans, i believe it'll be good.

but yeah, i feel like they'll stick keeping dante for veterans, but i also feel like they'll make a more 'finger friendly' for the wider audience they've been aiming since DmC.

oh, i'm sure most forget about this, but they did have way with dante for newcomer with that weird auto-combo mechanism, which i'm pretty sure even the most casual ones don't use, cuz i don't.
Yeah Automatic is...a tough sell to anyone who has even an inkling of DMC's fundamentals. I remember when DMC4se was coming out and Trish was often mentioned as a very beginner-friendly character, but I forget exactly why that was (if @GregaMan wants to fill me in!).

My overall gripe though, is making a character more accessible, instead of making the entire system accessible for each character. It's the one fighting game comparison I'm not keen on. I like the way Nero plays, but I also still like Dante, and maybe I'd like the new guy, too. It'd just be nice to not have UX become a factor in who I choose to play, or who I favor.
 

Innsmouth

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Hi! Shut up.
What an intellegent answer. not that I expected more. Game isn't out yet, but some "fans" already moan and whine about combat, without seeing anything. Considering game is most likely almost finished with release in next march, I'm pretty sure Itsuno can manafe it perfectly fine without any pro tips.
 

DarkSlayer54

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What an intellegent answer. not that I expected more. Game isn't out yet, but some "fans" already moan and whine about combat, without seeing anything. Considering game is most likely almost finished with release in next march, I'm pretty sure Itsuno can manafe it perfectly fine without any pro tips.
We don't need to see anything to give criticisms and feedback based on past titles. A part of being a fan is sharing opinions and giving feedback on the franchise.

Also, a large part of being a developer is being in tune with the audience's interests. Any developer who has a critical and constructive community is a lucky one.
 

Innsmouth

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We don't need to see anything to give criticisms and feedback based on past titles. A part of being a fan is sharing opinions and giving feedback on the franchise.

Also, a large part of being a developer is being in tune with the audience's interests. Any developer who has a critical and constructive community is a lucky one.
only when it's unbiased opinion. Which in case of this thread isn't the case. And let's not forget that DmC was harshly criticised by many for it dumbed down combat, so maybe. just maybe capcom DID listened and decided to return to old scheme, because many, myself included still consider it to be one of the best in combat games. Oh and claiming "old system is old and dumb" isn't criticism.
 

DarkSlayer54

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only when it's unbiased opinion. Which in case of this thread isn't the case. And let's not forget that DmC was harshly criticised by many for it dumbed down combat, so maybe. just maybe capcom DID listened and decided to return to old scheme, because many, myself included still consider it to be one of the best in combat games. Oh and claiming "old system is old and dumb" isn't criticism.
It's very much criticism. You may not agree, but that's what discussions are for.

If you want more details as to why I believe the old system feels clunky, all you have to do is ask. With how many directions this franchise has gone, we can't expect everyone to agree on everything. Be constructive and add to the discussion.
 

Innsmouth

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It's very much criticism. You may not agree, but that's what discussions are for.

If you want more details as to why I believe the old system feels clunky, all you have to do is ask. With how many directions this franchise has gone, we can't expect everyone to agree on everything. Be constructive and add to the discussion.
This discussion, is quite frankly completely pointless. Somebody don't like control scheme, while somebody likes it. It's just matter of personal preference with each side neither right or wrong. Personally I think DmC system was complete throwout, with trying to add much to many moves in unintuitive way at the same time, while older system was miles ahead of it, with more concentrated and intuitive approach. Do I think it worth discussing? nah. That's just my personal opinion.
But honestly if somebody considers all classic and game-defining moves old and dumb, maybe he just have to wait and see if DMCV changed it or go and play games like GoW, with much more primitve and basic combat and stay clear of DMC5 alltogether.
 

TWOxACROSS

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What an intellegent answer.
God, you're still here?

I told you to shut up because your first post was entirely pointless and added absolutely nothing to the discussion, and now you're arguing about bias and calling me a "fan," passive aggressive quotes and all, because I happen to like my games to not feel clunky when there are noticeable improvements that can, and have been, made. I'm done playing your baby troll games. Go eat paste in the corner.
 

Angel

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Yo, guys what's the craic here??

Let's take a step back and try to chill a bit before things get out of control.

I can see a perfectly valid discussion happening with a small smattering of snarkiness thrown in - and that's the pointless part of this thread.

So please stop and if a discussion is "pointless", simply step away and post something else that contributes rather than pulling each other down.

Thanks :)
 

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@TWOxACROSS Do you think they implement a mechanic where Dante styles are treated similar to fighting game stances? What I mean is say Dante uses royal guard parry and immediately after the parry ends it's pits him in gunslinger mode or into quicksilver.
 

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Can you guys just send a PM to each other and make friends? We're all DMC lovers here, right?

Personally, I love DMC3's combat the best. DMC4 was great for the time, but DmC was in some ways better, some ways worse. Although, I haven't properly played DMC4 or DmC in recent years so I can't remember off the top of my head why to me they don't IMO measure up to the DMC3 control scheme. I still love DMC4, DmC, and you guys. <3
 
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TWOxACROSS

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@TWOxACROSS Do you think they implement a mechanic where Dante styles are treated similar to fighting game stances? What I mean is say Dante uses royal guard parry and immediately after the parry ends it's pits him in gunslinger mode or into quicksilver.
Not sure! Do you mean like, being able to switch Styles freely, but then there also being a circumstantial switch mechanic to something "appropriate" to follow up different actions? Like, if I do High Time and follow the target into the air, it automatically switches me to Swordmaster so I can follow up with Aerial Rave from the style button?

The Automatic mode in DMC4 does something similar, where Aerial Rave can come out when pressing Triangle in the air. That'd be an amazing middle-ground, and ironically already shows that there's systems in place to ignore the use of the Style button. However, Automatic is so wildly unpredictable, at least as far as never wanting to use it because it's so crazy to figure out; I think it's based on enemy health...? Pretty much every DMC vet knows the pitfalls of Automatic mode, but there's something there worth considering, because why would they make so many characters now that have uniform melee combo inputs, and why does Automatic make it easier for Dante to perform Swordmaster moves? Because it's inherently over-complicated.

======================================

Overall though, my biggest question is why does Dante play the way he does, and why should he continue to play that way in DMC5? Please, consider the following.

Let's break down this conundrum into its simplest form: Dante's sword combos, ground and air. To do Aerial Rave, you need to be in the correct Style and press a different button than your ground combo. Hitting the sword button in the air with Dante performs his descent attack, Helm Splitter.

Nero, DmC Dante, and all of the DMC4se characters all have sword combos that are performed with the same button, on the ground and in the air. Their descent attack is performed with a separate input. Even Lady, the character that prioritizes firearms in her playstyle over melee combat, has a melee attack configuration just like everyone else (sans Dante).

Then, compare Nero and Dante's collection of sword moves - Red Queen has 11 moves that use just Triangle, excluding Exceed amplified ones; the base Rebellion has 7 moves, and excluding Shredder and Overdrive because they're follow-up inputs, Swordmaster adds another 5 for a total of 12 moves, which are spread over Triangle and O, with one move using a two-key input, and it all requiring a Style. Nero even gets a two more sword abilities while in Devil Trigger, making use of two-key inputs - which could have been utilized without the necessity of DT.

That's just Swordmaster as well. Lady shows an input scheme that could be emulated perfectly for Dante's Gunslinger abilities, and (as mentioned in the first post) by removing the necessity of a Style button, O could just be used for evasive moves from Trickster. Hell, pull a Kingdom Hearts and you can even put Royal Guard right back in there as a stationary O input, while Dash is used by pressing O while tilting the left stick. That's all four Styles, intact, without needing to be in a Style that segregates you from half your moves.

So why does Dante use, by all accounts, an "outdated" control scheme?

And if people can learn to play Nero, Vergil, Lady, Trish, and DmC Dante - they can surely figure out a better-configured classic Dante.
 
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