General DMC5 Discussion *spoiler warnings*

berto

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I think their bond stay present
I thought the whole thing was bland. They really took this 'I'm too badass to care' thing to the point of irrational with Dante. I see none of the snippets of actual emotional investment from either of them that I saw in 3. It felt like a pale, second hand, rehash.

but in the end the twins thanks to nero decided to put aside this stupid rivalry and fight togheter...
Yeah, that gave me the face palm. You might find their rivalry stupid but I thought it was one of the more interesting aspects of the series and to have it end because Nero threw a fit seemed to trivialize the whole thing to me.

Infact they are identical in dmc 3 but not now after more than 20 years passed from dmc 3 and they changed... They are indistinguishable in dmc 3 but in dmc 5 they are slightly different... Also this quotes in the manga doesn't want to mean that they are the same person
I know they've changed, that's the whole point of my contempt. It's not that they were the same person, not to the extent of being one entity, it's that whatever unifying metaphor having the same face gave them is gone now. Before any of this came up did any of you know that some identical twins didn't stay that way?

Also, they are, actually, they are very distinguishable in 3. Opposites but the same. Same face but blue instead of read. Swordsmen but one with a katana and the other with a broadsword. One subdued and one wild but both savage. It's both their differences and similarities that defines them.

Yes, I remember that part. However I'd argue that it was meant to be played more as a scenic dramatic effect rather than something that has actual deep significance when it comes to their relationship.
Now you have me confused. I thought that whole point of asking for that was because that quote offered no tangible connection to them having the same face.

I present these things as evidence or as the source of my position: 1 is 2 official sources that indicate they have the same face, which, for whatever reason, is something a few people refuse to admit back then, but here are the sources. The other is a statement from an official capcom book that states: 'Couldn't we think of Dante and Vergil from "Devil May Cry 3" as each existing as the other's Shadow?' 'They are twins, they are one another's other-self' and 'The battle where Dante and Vergil place themselves on opposite sides is a battle with one's other self' and you tell me I arrived at the wrong conclusion, that all of that was all actually trivial. Same faces, each other's other-selves. Nope. You're reading too much into it.

The scans you presented are the more convincing point, IMO. And even there, the fact that they're physically identical is only briefly mentioned, giving me no reason to think that it has the huge amount amount of significance you seem to attribute to it.
Well, how much of a fuzz did you want them to make about it? It is never actually said out loud that Vergil wants power because he didn't have the power to protect his mother but it is still true and important to his character. Equally, just because it was never stated that being each other's other-self and having the same face in the same sentence doesn't mean it has not correlation. If your 'other self' has the same face as you then I hardly think that's a coincidence. Removing that, however, has made that true, and thus removed a layer of depth to it all.

To me, in the entirety of the DMC story, the fact that they're brothers, rather than twin brothers, is what held the most actual meaning. The latter always came across as a scenic, "visually dramatic" device, so to speak.
And that's fine. Believe that if you like. What right do I have to tell you otherwise? Me, on the other hand, I think there's something more profound to it, for them to both love and hate what the other represents. That having the same face makes them mirrors to each other in more than just a visual way but also in a metaphorical one because it means that trying to kill each other is more than just trying to kill each other. That it alludes to something deeper. A self loathing to their very nature. Dante who kills demons yet is part demon, Vergil who hates his humanity yet his other self embraces it so strongly. If you want to be dismissive about it, cool, I've been on the other end and I respect your stance, but I'm also not going to change mine and I consider the loss of that aspect of the characters a significant one.
 
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Vergil95

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I thought the whole thing was bland. They really took this 'I'm too badass to care' thing to the point of irrational with Dante. I see none of the snippets of actual emotional investment from either of them that I saw in 3. It felt like a pale, second hand, rehash.


Yeah, that gave me the face palm. You might find their rivalry stupid but I thought it was one of the more interesting aspects of the series and to have it end because Nero threw a fit seemed to trivialize the whole thing to me.


I know they've changed, that's the whole point of my contempt. It's not that they were the same person, not to the extent of being one entity, it's that whatever unifying metaphor having the same face gave them is gone now. Before any of this came up did any of you know that some identical twins didn't stay that way?

Also, they are, actually, they are very distinguishable in 3. Opposites but the same. Same face but blue instead of read. Swordsmen but one with a katana and the other with a broadsword. One subdued and one wild but both savage. It's both their differences and similarities that defines them.


Now you have me confused. I thought that whole point of asking for that was because that quote offered no tangible connection to them having the same face.

I present these things as evidence or as the source of my position: 1 is 2 official sources that indicate they have the same face, which, for whatever reason, is something a few people refuse to admit back then, but here are the sources. The other is a statement from an official capcom book that states: 'Couldn't we think of Dante and Vergil from "Devil May Cry 3" as each existing as the other's Shadow?' 'They are twins, they are one another's other-self' and 'The battle where Dante and Vergil place themselves on opposite sides is a battle with one's other self' and you tell me I arrived at the wrong conclusion, that all of that was all actually trivial. Same faces, each other's other-selves. Nope. You're reading too much into it.


Well, how much of a fuzz did you want them to make about it? It is never actually said out loud that Vergil wants power because he didn't have the power to protect his mother but it is still true and important to his character. Equally, just because it was never stated that being each other's other-self and having the same face was never said in the same sentence doesn't mean it has not correlation. If your 'other self' has the same face as you then I hardly think that's a coincidence. Removing that, however, has made that true, and thus removed a layer of depth to it all.


And that's fine. Believe that if you like. What right do I have to tell you otherwise? Me, on the other hand, I think there's something more profound to it, for them to both love and hate what the other represents. That having the same face makes them mirrors to each other in more than just a visual way but also in a metaphorical one because it means that trying to kill each other is more than just trying to kill each other. That it alludes to something deeper. A self loathing to their very nature. Dante who kills demons yet is part demon, Vergil who hates his humanity yet his other self embraces it so strongly. If you want to be dismissive about it, cool, I've been on the other end and I respect your stance, but I'm also not going to change mine and I consider the loss of that aspect of the characters a significant one.
Yeah I must agree that the fact that they are twins is something more profound also in dmc 3 sometimes they explicitly say this... Howeber what I meant whit "stupid" rivalry is that fighting was pointless that deep inside both of then care for one an other and this was proved in dmc 3 ending when vergil fall and let dante go to not let him trap in the demon world and later dante cry for his brother.... Fighting is stupid that what I mean and what Nero meant, Infact he sayd that it's ridiculous, they are brother they should not fight
 

Foxtrot94

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Same faces, each other's other-selves. Nope. You're reading too much into it.
Well from my perspective yeah. Cause aside from that one "same faces" quote, being "each other's other selves" sounds more like it's about their principles and ideals rather than their physical connotations.

But now we've reached the point where we're repeating ourselves.

And that's fine. Believe that if you like. What right do I have to tell you otherwise? Me, on the other hand, I think there's something more profound to it
Fair enough. I'm not out to change your mind. Just sharing my insight on your... insight. Agree to disagree I guess. At least I hope you didn't feel attacked.
 
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berto

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Howeber what I meant whit "stupid" rivalry is that fighting was pointless that deep inside both of then care for one
Yes. If they didn't care for one another it be much cleaner and streight forward.

this was proved in dmc 3 ending when vergil fall and let dante go to not let him trap in the demon world and later dante cry for his brother....
Yep. That is also supported in that same book I mentioned before.
- In the final scene, Vergil alone was left in the demon world. When Vergil sent Dante back to the human world, this was not because he wanted to keep the power of the demon world to himself - rather, it was his wish that Dante continue to live as a human. That's how this should be interpreted.
There is a genuine intent for victory from both sides. I don't know if Vergil knew that Dante would survive being impaled but he certainly wanted to win enough to be willing to kill him. Dante probably had the same intent. That doesn't mean that they love each other, even if only by extension of loving the same mother, however, people can and do often crash, can reach irreconcilable differences that put them at odds. You can't dismiss a quarrel so strong that two people who once, and still might, love each other to act try to kill one another as just 'stupid.' It might seem inconsequential to you but it certainly isn't to them.
 

Goldsickle

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Charged Shot 3 isn't "absolute" in this game anymore.
In DMC4, whether it's Devil-Triggered Assaults or even Frosts, a Charged Shot 3 is guaranteed to knock down an enemy.

On the other hand, Devil-Triggered enemies in DMC5 don't seem to have Snatch-immunity, like how Assaults or Chimera Seeds did in DMC4.
I was totally expecting my Snatch to bounce off when Riots and Chaoses starts Devil-Triggering but it works just fine.
 

Foxtrot94

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If you don't want enemies to be knocked back by Overture or Gerbera, shoot a Color Up shot right before.
 

Goldsickle

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Hold + EX Provocation is a good way to abuse the Style ranking when playing as Nero.

Even better, Devil Trigger first to grab two enemies at the same time and perform a double Hold.
You can deactivate Devil Trigger and the double Hold will not get cancelled, as long as you don't release it.
Good for places where there are only two enemies present (like the first compulsory battle in Mission 8, you fight two Antenora first before a Fury appears).
You can also use enemies as a shield against enemy types that don't go around you, like a Proto Angelo.
 

devil_inside123

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I thought the whole thing was bland. They really took this 'I'm too badass to care' thing to the point of irrational with Dante. I see none of the snippets of actual emotional investment from either of them that I saw in 3. It felt like a pale, second hand, rehash.


Yeah, that gave me the face palm. You might find their rivalry stupid but I thought it was one of the more interesting aspects of the series and to have it end because Nero threw a fit seemed to trivialize the whole thing to me.


I know they've changed, that's the whole point of my contempt. It's not that they were the same person, not to the extent of being one entity, it's that whatever unifying metaphor having the same face gave them is gone now. Before any of this came up did any of you know that some identical twins didn't stay that way?

Also, they are, actually, they are very distinguishable in 3. Opposites but the same. Same face but blue instead of read. Swordsmen but one with a katana and the other with a broadsword. One subdued and one wild but both savage. It's both their differences and similarities that defines them.


Now you have me confused. I thought that whole point of asking for that was because that quote offered no tangible connection to them having the same face.

I present these things as evidence or as the source of my position: 1 is 2 official sources that indicate they have the same face, which, for whatever reason, is something a few people refuse to admit back then, but here are the sources. The other is a statement from an official capcom book that states: 'Couldn't we think of Dante and Vergil from "Devil May Cry 3" as each existing as the other's Shadow?' 'They are twins, they are one another's other-self' and 'The battle where Dante and Vergil place themselves on opposite sides is a battle with one's other self' and you tell me I arrived at the wrong conclusion, that all of that was all actually trivial. Same faces, each other's other-selves. Nope. You're reading too much into it.


Well, how much of a fuzz did you want them to make about it? It is never actually said out loud that Vergil wants power because he didn't have the power to protect his mother but it is still true and important to his character. Equally, just because it was never stated that being each other's other-self and having the same face in the same sentence doesn't mean it has not correlation. If your 'other self' has the same face as you then I hardly think that's a coincidence. Removing that, however, has made that true, and thus removed a layer of depth to it all.


And that's fine. Believe that if you like. What right do I have to tell you otherwise? Me, on the other hand, I think there's something more profound to it, for them to both love and hate what the other represents. That having the same face makes them mirrors to each other in more than just a visual way but also in a metaphorical one because it means that trying to kill each other is more than just trying to kill each other. That it alludes to something deeper. A self loathing to their very nature. Dante who kills demons yet is part demon, Vergil who hates his humanity yet his other self embraces it so strongly. If you want to be dismissive about it, cool, I've been on the other end and I respect your stance, but I'm also not going to change mine and I consider the loss of that aspect of the characters a significant one.
Or it could just be the fact that the game is told from nero's point of view instead of Dante's. In 3 everyone was feeling that tension and melodrama because everyone in 3 was invested in killing someone. Nero on the other hand straight from the start doesnt understand why they're fighting so the game doesn't treat it with as much subtly. The entire game is pretty much a repeat of 3 but only with nero here to call them out for instantly trying to kill each other. For once we arent seeing things from the view of a fight crazy demon who only knows how to express familial bonds through fighting. So that "poetry" mightve just been an extremely tilted POV
 

Goldsickle

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I know absolutely none of these terminologies you all are speaking of :hungover:
HOLD: The move where Nero uses his Devil Bringer to hold up enemies and use them as a shield. Only works on light enemies that can be Snatched. If you do this during Devil Trigger close to another enemy, Nero will Hold two enemies at a time. Turning off Devil Trigger when holding up two enemies won't let go of the second enemy.

EX PROVOCATION: The "super-taunt" move that costs 3,000,000 Red Orbs in the Customization menu. When initiated during a battle, Nero, Dante or V will do a lengthy dance move that raises Style and fills up Devil Trigger energy. This will help with getting Stylish ratings for an S rank. The problem with this move is that you're absolutely vulnerable, unless you can make use of the camera to look away from the enemies or stand in a place where enemies can't reach you (e.g. Hell Cainas can't jump up some ledges).

When you pair up Nero's Hold with EX Provocation, it makes raising Style a lot easier.
Either use it to disable two enemies on screen or use enemies as a shield while Nero dance away.
 

Goldsickle

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Are you not supposed to be able to guard Urizen's homing tentacle attack with Royal Guard?

I had a full Devil Trigger gauge and it still eats into my guard and kills me in Hell and Hell.
 

Foxtrot94

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Are you not supposed to be able to guard Urizen's homing tentacle attack with Royal Guard?
Eh, just avoid it. Stay away from him till he initiates the attack then teleport to him and attack, his tentacles will miss.
 

Vergil95

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Are you not supposed to be able to guard Urizen's homing tentacle attack with Royal Guard?

I had a full Devil Trigger gauge and it still eats into my guard and kills me in Hell and Hell.
In hell and hell roayl guard is uselles unless you don't make a perfect guard, because in hell and hell even if you have a full dt bar only one shot by enemy will deplete the bar completely
 

Goldsickle

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In hell and hell roayl guard is uselles unless you don't make a perfect guard, because in hell and hell even if you have a full dt bar only one shot by enemy will deplete the bar completely
Stupid Capcom.

Well, no matter.
I got a No Damage S rank on H&H Mission 13 on my first try as Dante, without using Dr. Faust.

Take that.
 

Foxtrot94

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In hell and hell roayl guard is uselles unless you don't make a perfect guard, because in hell and hell even if you have a full dt bar only one shot by enemy will deplete the bar completely
Oh so that's why my guards would break. Makes sense, would be way too much of a breeze if non perfect guards could save you no matter what.
 

Vergil95

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Yeah I think it would have been to easy to just dodge every attack with royal guard in hell and hell, so they put that one shot will destroy your guard no matter how many dt you had unless you do a perfect guard
 

Foxtrot94

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Man, I've started to seriously implement Bringer Knuckles into my gameplay after neglecting it all this time and I've found out that besides being really fun to pull off, it also adds another layer of depth to Nero.

Not only does it increase his DPS but it also stops the momentum you give to an enemy after certain moves (including knockback) like High Roller, Split, Streak, Shuffle, Calibur, Overture etc. eliminating the need for Snatch or in some cases even jump canceling.

I'm only experimenting in the Void for the moment, and one of the most fun applications I've found is with that momentum manipulation while using Overture. Overture's attack depends on the enemy's position in relation to Nero and/or the environment. Is the enemy on the same horizontal level as Nero? Knocked down? Above Nero? Next to a wall? So the regular attack can turn from a standard push to a ground slam to an uppercut etc.
Well with Bringer Knuckles you can manipulate the enemy so can he gets in the position necessary for you to get the kind of Overture attack you wouldn't be able to get otherwise. For example you can BK a Split to keep him suspended in the air and follow up with an uppercut and continue juggling him. Furthermore, Overture attacks themselves can be BK'd.

It's really hard to BK short animations like the individual hits of Red Queen's combos but longer animations like the last hits of the ground combos/Aerial Rave, Streak, Shuffle, Calibur, High Roller, Split, and pretty much all Exceeded variations of them are easier and it pays off.
It's a small but significant step in making Nero more of a technical character, and increase his skill ceiling compared to DMC4, on top of the Exceed system.
 
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Goldsickle

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Cavaliere has a 5-hit aerial combo, which is done with Style, Style, Sword, Sword, Style.
Obviously only available when Swordmaster is activated and all attacks chain fluidly.

Either people already know this and didn't care but I never see any video where this combo is used.
It's one of the easiest way to stay in the air, while dealing big damage to the enemy and raising Style.

This is the closest thing to a "dial-up combo" in DMC after DMC2's Fireworks (and other variants).
 
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