A Change in the Timeline

Lain

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O...Okay.

I guess it's not a super important retcon, but it still extremely odd. I wonder what the reasoning was?
 

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Funny thing is that made more sense to me. The anime doesn't give Dante a convincing carthasis so it easier to see him sliding into his DMC2 portrayal than the DMC4 portrayal.

I guess his trip to hell at the end of 2 shook him out of his funk.
 
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AgentRedgrave

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It doesn't really contradict anything so...meh. Edit* Upon thinking it over, I like to add that this change in the timeline has no negatives but has the positive of taking away headaches. Look at it this way, 31425, when I tell my friends this and have to say "3 is a prequel to 1, 4 is a sequel to 1 and prequel to 2, while 5 is gonna be a sequel to 2" usually met with some "Wtf" expressions. But now, 31245, all that needs to be said is "3 is a prequel to 1" That is all, so honestly, this change is probably a good thing
 
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Foxtrot94

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but has the positive of taking away headaches
Does it though? Cause Dante's completely backwards personality makes even less sense now and the feeling of disconnection DMC2 has with the rest of the series is even more apparent without having the "it's set in the distant future" excuse. This change in the timeline actually exacerbates the already glaring issues DMC2 has.
 

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Does it though? Cause Dante's completely backwards personality makes even less sense now and the feeling of disconnection DMC2 has with the rest of the series is even more apparent without having the "it's set in the distant future" excuse. This change in the timeline actually exacerbates the already glaring issues DMC2 has.
Foxy, DMC5 was already doing that. Like I said, least this way, the timeline's less screwed up
 

Foxtrot94

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Foxy, DMC5 was already doing that.
And in fact I didn't like the choice of setting it after DMC2 either. In fact, I think the absolute best thing would be to just erase DMC2 from canon once and for all.
 

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I don't like it when creators arbitrarily change timelines after the fact, or really any detail that they have already established. Like how it seems every week J K Rowling changes something else about the Harry Potter universe. This is no exception. Each game is so disconnected from each other that it doesn't *really* matter the order, so just leave it alone.
 

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From the other thread-

"It reminds me of how Team Ninja handled the whole "Is the SNES ninja gaiden games canon to the modern series?" question.

Tvtropes called it the flip flop of God because they kept changing their minds each time they were asked."

At this point I rather they just remake it as a Trish/lady spinoff. That's a more fun way to deal with the timeline/personality issues. Plus I think Lady/Trish are overdue from some focus away from Dante and redoing 2 feels like an easier way to sell it.

@Foxtrot94
The anime and the way DMC1 ended with Vergil set up a possible way to lead into 2's shift in personality. Regardless if vergil actually died or not, the game treats it like one so you could say Dante's shift in personality is due to grief.

Getting trapped in Hell at the end of 2 helped Dante more than what he was doing before so that lead to how he was in 4.

Or just say that 2 happened but it was a regular day on the job.
 
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O...Okay.

I guess it's not a super important retcon, but it still extremely odd. I wonder what the reasoning was?
Because Dante's base DT in DMC5 resembles his in DMC4 than the one in DMC2. Because DMC5 Dante has more in common with his DMC4 counterpart than his DMC2 counterpart.

This makes DMC4 a bit more interesting in hindsight if it was initially always set after DMC2 (since the Historia in DMC4 does it look like it could be) that the first thing in DMC4 is Dante killing the pope and demons invading the city afterwards one would think did Dante go evil after returning from hell and is siding with the demons.
 

Foxtrot94

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Or just say that 2 happened but it was a regular day on the job.
Or, you know, erase that game from canon entirely. It never quite fit in anyway, it wouldn't be much of a loss at all and it would make the timeline a lot more consistent. Imo, these attempts to try and make DMC2 fit by putting it in various spots of the timeline are all destined to fail and backfire cause that game is fundamentally alien to the the series as a whole in the first place.

I was once all for having a new game acknowledge it in some way but now I've realized that's just wasted effort and the series would benefit more from a declaration of non canon status than doing these shenanigans.
 

windleopard

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Does it though? Cause Dante's completely backwards personality makes even less sense now and the feeling of disconnection DMC2 has with the rest of the series is even more apparent without having the "it's set in the distant future" excuse. This change in the timeline actually exacerbates the already glaring issues DMC2 has.
Dante's personality can make sense if you consider that he went through the pain of losing brother twice in DMC 1 and DMC 3, his experiences in another timeline where he had to kill an evil version of Trish and Trish and Lady being absent from the game means his closest allies aren't around.

Even then, Dante's personality in 2 wasn't that much of an extreme divergence from how he acted in the first game. People only feel this way because of how 3 and 4 basically turned him into a demonic version of Deadpool.

Or, you know, erase that game from canon entirely. It never quite fit in anyway, it wouldn't be much of a loss at all and it would make the timeline a lot more consistent. Imo, these attempts to try and make DMC2 fit by putting it in various spots of the timeline are all destined to fail and backfire cause that game is fundamentally alien to the the series as a whole in the first place.

I was once all for having a new game acknowledge it in some way but now I've realized that's just wasted effort and the series would benefit more from a declaration of non canon status than doing these shenanigans.
There are worse entries into a franchise than DMC 2 that don't get erased and nothing about it is so offensive it has to be retconned out. There's still somethings to like about it like Lucia, Dante's design, Rebellion and Majin form. It's far from flawless but it does have some merits.
 

Foxtrot94

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Dante's personality can make sense
Not when you consider that you got a moody, silent and borderline emotionless Dante inserted in between his motorbike-juggling, bantering and active DMC1 self and his humorous DMC4 self. At least, when it was the last in the timeline, it had that excuse and there was more room for you to make up whatever headcanon you wanted to justify his shift in personality. Now that room got way smaller.

Even then, Dante's personality in 2 wasn't that much of an extreme divergence from how he acted in the first game.
Yes, yes it was. I won't repeat myself cause I explained why in another thread made for that specific topic a while ago and that discussion doesn't belong here, but to come to a more relevant topic, I don't want DMC2 erased just because it's a bad game. I want it non canon because it's a burden. No matter where you place it in the story, it remains alien and just spawns new head scratchers for the devs to explain. It could have been the absolute best game in the franchise, its gameplay could have been unrivaled and it could have had the finest combat system ever created, but it wouldn't have fixed the fundamentally foreign feeling and the sense of disconnection the game has. Which is why it keeps not fitting in, no matter at which point in the timeline they put it. The fact that it's a terrible game isn't the reason the franchise is better off with DMC2 being declared non canon, that's just the pineapple topping on a pizza of manure.
 

windleopard

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Not when you consider that you got a moody, silent and borderline emotionless Dante inserted in between his motorbike-juggling, bantering and active DMC1 self and his humorous DMC4 self. At least, when it was the last in the timeline, it had that excuse and there was more room for you to make up whatever headcanon you wanted to justify his shift in personality. Now that room got way smaller.


It looks more like 2 is taking place after 3 and 1. So again, look at what happens to him in 3 and 1. In 3, he starts out as having little care in the world then ends up having to fight his brother who seemingly dies. DMC 1 comes along and he is subjected to psychological manipulation by Mundus who creates a demon in his mother’s image and he has to see his brother die again. The events of the novel of him killing an evil version of Trish then happen as he’s called to the island by Lucia. If anything Dante’s behavior in 2 makes more sense if 2 takes place after 3 and 1.



Yes, yes it was. I won't repeat myself cause I explained why in another thread made for that specific topic a while ago and that discussion doesn't belong here, but to come to a more relevant topic, I don't want DMC2 erased just because it's a bad game. I want it non canon because it's a burden. No matter where you place it in the story, it remains alien and just spawns new head scratchers for the devs to explain. It could have been the absolute best game in the franchise, its gameplay could have been unrivaled and it could have had the finest combat system ever created, but it wouldn't have fixed the fundamentally foreign feeling and the sense of disconnection the game has. Which is why it keeps not fitting in, no matter at which point in the timeline they put it. The fact that it's a terrible game isn't the reason the franchise is better off with DMC2 being declared non canon, that's just the pineapple topping on a pizza of manure.

It’s only a burden if fans and creators make it that way. There are ways to fit it into the timeline without any issues (I listed them above). And as for Dante’s personality change, I stand by what I said. There was no real major divergence from what people thought of Dante when 2 came out. Dante being some hyperactive, pizza-obsessed party animal is retroactively created from 3 and 4 which were overreactions to how he was in 2.
 
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Foxtrot94

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There are ways to fit it into the timeline without any issues
I beg to differ. There's still the issue of him going back to his happy, joking persona in 4 from his zombie-like personality in 2.

And I'm really sorry, but if you can't see the big difference between DMC2's deadpan Dante and his DMC1 self, where he banters with and **** talks bosses, juggles motorcycles with bullets and shows a confident, larger than life persona, I don't know what else other than what I already wrote in the dedicated thread to say other than, I dunno, rewatch the cutscenes. Yes, DMC1 has serious moments. But he also has the joking, funny and cheesy side of his personality which DMC2 almost completely eliminated aside from maybe one line.

In fact, I just checked and you were the one making that thread. I invite you to reread my replies and Berto's, which explain why DMC2 Dante definitely is different from his predecessor, and, if you still wanna continue that discussion, to kindly do so there in order not to derail this thread and not to create redundancy.
 

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I beg to differ. There's still the issue of him going back to his happy, joking persona in 4 from his zombie-like personality in 2.
He went through a stage of depression for a while and became more carefree later down the line as he put his tragedies behind him. People do this in fiction and real life all the time. You're acting as if people don't change and grow. That's not true in real life or fiction. It's really not difficult to grasp as you're making it to be.

And I'm really sorry, but if you can't see the big difference between DMC2's deadpan Dante and his DMC1 self, where he banters with and **** talks bosses, juggles motorcycles with bullets and shows a confident, larger than life persona, I don't know what else other than what I already wrote in the dedicated thread to say other than, I dunno, rewatch the cutscenes. Yes, DMC1 has serious moments. But he also has the joking, funny and cheesy side of his personality which DMC2 almost completely eliminated aside from maybe one line.
Most of that stuff was from DMC 3 not 1. The only thing that's present in 1 is banter with bosses and even that is miniscule compared to 3 and 4.
 
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Foxtrot94

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Lain

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I don't like it when creators arbitrarily change timelines after the fact, or really any detail that they have already established. Like how it seems every week J K Rowling changes something else about the Harry Potter universe. This is no exception. Each game is so disconnected from each other that it doesn't *really* matter the order, so just leave it alone.
I'm with Meg on this one. Tinkering with the established canon well after the fact doesn't inspire confidence as it invariably never goes well and will only create headaches down the road.

Given what's already occurred with Nico and Morrison, I'm on the verge of giving up when it comes to canon with this series. :frown:
 

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@Foxtrot94
Vergil's last scene gave the impression of a death scene and in the anime, he seems depressed. You could say he's consumed with grief and not taking it well. Ironically it's easier to place 2 after the anime than 4 because the anime doesn't give Dante any real catharsis. So you could say Dante's grief/depression just carried over from the anime to 2.

When life gives you lemons.....:cool:. The anime is dull and tedious but you might as well find some use for it.

Dante's trip in hell helped get him out of his funk better than the anime did which set him up for 4. It gives the line "a fight every now and then makes life more interesting don't ya think" a new meaning.

The issue isn't that they can't resolve the gap between 2 and the rest of the series because I just did. It's more they don't care to or can't commit too which I get. "Continuity is all well and good till you gotta fix someone else's problem" (Grant Morrison said that I think).

Look people want to keep it because they like what they like quality be damned. I read enough Marvel/DC to know everybody has a take they like but not everyone likes the same take. I hate the anime and used to hate 4 but I'm not gonna tell someone they should get rid off it because I hate it.

@Lain
Nico was retconned?
 
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Lain

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@Lain
Nico was retconned?
In regards to the whole formerly non-canon first novel now being made semi-canon thanks to Nico being made the granddaughter of Nell Goldstein.
 
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