The Killing Joke: Batgirl Deserved Better, And Why The Story Doesn't Work Today

[Chancey289]

So, I just finished watching The Killing Joke, literally like no more than 10 minutes from writing this, and I'm not particularly fond with how Batgirl was treated in this film.

See, when I heard that The Killing Joke film was going to expand upon the story of Barbara here, I actually thought it was a good idea. Considering Barbara's only role seemed to be only to get crippled, raped, and one of the tools to drive Gordon mad. But, how did the film adaption decide to expand her role? In one of the worst possible ways.

Barbara's role in the Killing Joke film is basically reduced to a love sick student who's clamoring for the affections of her teacher. She talks about it damn near constantly with her library co-worker under the guise of a Yoga teacher And also has to deal with a misogynistic villain who comes off as your typical Tindr creep for only Batman to blatantly point out the sexism because Batgirl is just apparently too naive.

Eventually this sexual tension leads to a confrontation that leads straight in to angry sex that's so cheesy I expected it from a typical bad rom-com. Putting aside the fact that this just seems very wrong, considering the relationship between the two has always been more Father-Daughter, and she is your best friend's daughter, it,s just one thing I imagine Batman would NEVER do.

And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this expanded story of her character in the Killing Joke, isn't for her at all. It's for Batman. It isn't trying to make her a more strong, and important character like they originally claimed they were trying to do. But being a personal motivator for Batman to be personally more emotionally invested in his hunt for Joker after all the terrible things start to go down. Because getting them to f*ck is apparently the only way these writers think will get Batman emotionally more invested.

It's lazy, stupid, and totally demeans her character.

And now I'll get to my final point after watching the film I realized, THE KILLING JOKE JUST DOES NOT WORK IN 2016.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still thing it's good story. It's a fine read that I think all Batman fans should check out at least once, but it's very much a product of its time. Around the time it came out, The Killing Joke was one of the first Batman stories to take the character to extremely dark territory and to be honest, is a lot of shock value for the sake of shock value. That's the impact this story has.

But when you stack it up against many stories that have came out in the later years of the character's legacy, it's just kind of another day in the life of Batman. Most contemporary fans reading it now, will probably not get what the hype was all about even if they still enjoy the story. I personally have kinda come around to the realization that while it is what it is, it's just kind of dated. Now I understand why @Jak said the time for an adaption was just too late now.

So, there you have it, my semi-review/ analysis of the film adaption of The Killing Joke. It's not a terrible film, but it's definitely one of the weaker entries in the animated film canon that fails characters like Batgirl, and just highlights why it's now just kind of there. Mask of The Phantasm and Under The Red Hood for example still hold more compelling stories.

 

[xMobilemux]

The whole "doesn't work in 2016" or "has no place in 2016" statement needs to get the f**k outta my house and die in a hole somewhere!!

If you didn't like the movie fine, but I liked it.
Though I would have rather the whole Batgirl part of the movie at the beginning be removed entirely and we had a 45 minute movie about The Killing Joke.
Batgirl being nothing but something to be shot, raped and sexually objectified does not bother me a single tiny bit, in fact I wanted it to be more extreme cause what shocked Gordon didn't do much for me and I was counting on an R rated Killing Joke movie to really push the limits. I've seen Joker do a good deal of stuff, but what he did in Killing Joke was something I've been waiting to see him do in a movie for a while.
I was so hoping this would have surpassed the "holy sh*t!" moment I had when he tricked Superman into killing Lois and his unborn baby, I was counting on The Killing Joke to offer the ultimate shock value for Joker, but it was actually rather tame in my opinion. Still enjoyed the movie fine though.

But I'm so sick of that god damn piece of s**t "doesn't work in 2016" statement.
There is no such thing as "no place in 2016".
Everything, no matter how offensive or demeaning has every right to be made and enjoyed today.
It just comes down to whether you are or are not the proud owner of a f**king spine!

 

[Chancey289]

The whole "doesn't work in 2016" or "has no place in 2016" statement needs to get the f**k outta my house and die in a hole somewhere!!

If you didn't like the movie fine, but I liked it.
Though I would have rather the whole Batgirl part of the movie at the beginning be removed entirely and we had a 45 minute movie about The Killing Joke.
Batgirl being nothing but something to be shot, raped and sexually objectified does not bother me a single tiny bit, in fact I wanted it to be more extreme cause what shocked Gordon didn't do much for me and I was counting on an R rated Killing Joke movie to really push the limits. I've seen Joker do a good deal of stuff, but what he did in Killing Joke was something I've been waiting to see him do in a movie for a while.
I was so hoping this would have surpassed the "holy sh*t!" moment I had when he tricked Superman into killing Lois and his unborn baby, I was counting on The Killing Joke to offer the ultimate shock value for Joker, but it was actually rather tame in my opinion. Still enjoyed the movie fine though.

But I'm so sick of that god damn piece of s**t "doesn't work in 2016" statement.
There is no such thing as "no place in 2016".
Everything, no matter how offensive or demeaning has every right to be made and enjoyed today.
It just comes down to whether you are or are not the proud owner of a f**king spine!

*sigh* If you missed the point any more you'd be on a different thread, really forum all together.

You honestly think I have a problem with heavy and dark material? You're talking to a guy who legitimately enjoys films like 100 Days of Sodom, Grotesque, Cannibal Holocaust, and Caligula for example. I can be a sucker for f***** up sh*t. So, you acting like I don't have a spine for such content couldn't be farther from the truth.

The point I was trying to make with saying The Killing Joke doesn't work today, is because when it came out, it was doing something Batman hardly ever did. In a time where comics were still considered only kids stuff. Since then, Batman has a tendency to be dark and more mature than most DC heroes, so doing The Killing Joke now just doesn't really have the same impact or relevance.

Savvy? Learn to read.

And yea, we get it edgelord. You think you're so goddamn cool when you think you're sticking it to someone when you push the boundaries. You hope more that it ****es in someone's Cheerios than actually seeing a product for its actual quality.

You don't know a thing when it comes to storytelling, and really just make yourself look like a simple minded jerk.

You don't know what you're talking about whatsoever.

 

[xMobilemux]

Ok my bad I got it mixed up and replied too quickly, I'm pretty damn tired tonight.

But I still think The Killing Joke could have had the impact that other Joker/Batman movies have been lacking lately.
The Killing Joke that we got didn't even seem like much of an R Rated movie to me.

 

[Chancey289]

Ok my bad I got it mixed up and replied too quickly, I'm pretty damn tired tonight.

But I still think The Killing Joke could have had the impact that other Joker/Batman movies have been lacking lately.
The Killing Joke that we got didn't even seem like much of an R Rated movie to me.

Fine.

But it did really do everything the comic does, aside from the first 30 minutes. The whole Batgirl centric prologue.

 

[Meg]

*sigh* Well I'm not surprised. I appreciate the two of you cooling it, but for goodness sakes you are both broken records. @Chancey289 would it kill you to control your anger? @xMobilemux , we get it! You're a misogynist in denial. You don't need to bring it up every chance you get.

Seriously guys. :facepalm:

 

[xMobilemux]

@xMobilemux , we get it! You're a misogynist in denial. You don't need to bring it up every chance you get.

Seriously guys. :facepalm:

Oh boy.... :banghead:

So just because I'm not always PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO WOMEN and have a very high appreciation for the female form, I'm suddenly a misogynist?

Where in the flying f**k did I say I hate women? Where in the EVER LOVING F**K did I say that women are less than men?
If you're thinking that anti SJW rage a few threads back, you do know that SJWs/radical feminists aren't exclusively women right? Also those kinds that of SJWs that I hate, are way more anti women than I'll ever be!

 

[Meg]

Oh boy.... :banghead:

So just because I'm not always PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO PRO WOMEN and have a very high appreciation for the female form, I'm suddenly a misogynist?

Where in the flying f**k did I say I hate women? Where in the EVER LOVING F**K did I say that women are less than men?
If you're thinking that anti SJW rage a few threads back, you do know that SJWs/radical feminists aren't exclusively women right? Also those kinds that of SJWs that I hate, are way more anti women than I'll ever be!

All right well your outburst doesn't convince me otherwise. Warning added and banned from thread.

 

[Teal]

See, when I heard that The Killing Joke film was going to expand upon the story of Barbara here, I actually thought it was a good idea. Considering Barbara's only role seemed to be only to get crippled, raped, and one of the tools to drive Gordon mad.

Batgirl being nothing but something to be shot, raped

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I'm gonna make a correction. At no point in the comics is it specified that Barbara's been raped. Shot? Yes. Sexually humiliated? Yep. But not raped. Moore said that didn't happen.

The Killing Joke movie apparently did suggest that the Joker did that to her, but Timm came out and shot it down, saying that was not part of his vision.

Other than that, I agree with most of Chancey's points. It would have been much better if they didn't try to add controversy to an already controversial piece of work. A way to go on about that would have been a Bat-centric first act, explaining his state of mind at this point in his life and making his last scene where both him and Joker share a laugh a lot more meaningful.

 

[Lain]

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I'm gonna make a correction. At no point in the comics is it specified that Barbara's been raped. Shot? Yes. Sexually humiliated? Yep. But not raped. Moore said that didn't happen.

I remember reading somewhere that when Gordon was shown the pictures of Barbara writhing in pain, originally it was going to be much more graphic but the artist was told to tone it down which inadvertently lead to the censored final product looking more sexually suggestive as a result.

Ah, found the pictures. NSFW obviously.

Spoiler: NSFW - Draft versus Final Product

 

[Chancey289]

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I'm gonna make a correction. At no point in the comics is it specified that Barbara's been raped. Shot? Yes. Sexually humiliated? Yep. But not raped. Moore said that didn't happen.

Sorry, but I really think only Moore came out and said that stuff just because of his growing distaste of his own work. He hates The Killing Joke now. I imagine at the time, that panel was always meant to imply that he raped her because of how convincing that implication was. There was a reason why people always assumed it.

And it's not like Moore has ever not indulged in that kind of stuff in his work. In The League of Extrodinary Gentlemen he has Mr. Hyde rape The Invisible Man. The Killing Joke is a lot of shock value just for the sake of it. So yea, I have a hard time believing that was never the original intention.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

I liked it......The part that was actually The Killing Joke.

The first half hour felt kinda out of place, I mean, excuse me, but I thought the appeal of this story was how it explores how Batman and Joker aren't that different, they're both two guys who went down their respective path because of one bad day.

Sure, Babs goes through something horrible, but the story was never about her. If they wanted to extend the story, they should have added more Joker scenes.

Maybe a prologue showing the Joker being incarcerated 3 years (?) before the main events of the story

Also, I'm sorry, I try to be open minded, but the Batgirl crushing on Batman subplot and the sex scene, made me throw up in my mouth a little.

I didn't like this paring when it was alluded to in Batman Beyond, or when it was touched on in Mystery of the Batwoman, and I don't like it now.

Not so much to do with their age gap. But she's his friends daughter, and his adopted son's on-again-off-again girlfriend
(Love Starfire, but DickXBabs for life! EDIT: Also BruceXSelena!.....BruceXDiana also acceptable)

They said they wanted to make her a stronger character, but just turned her into a crushing little girl basically. Nice one guys

 

[berto]

 

[Jak]

i dunno. everything AFTER the prologue was great because it was more or less a literal adaptation of the comic. but that prologue was cringe worthy. i'm all down for a batgirl movie. i think barbara gordon is an amazing character, who DOES deserve her own movie...but i don't want THAT batgirl movie. the prologue makes her a whiny petulant child who has a weird thing for batman...because...bruce timm thinks that's hot for...some reason :vomit:.

as far as the movie itself, it's fine. but i do stand by my opinion that a killing joke movie should've been made 20 years ago. because NOW the story isn't as shocking as it was in the 80's. and since then, we've told similar joker stories, and i feel we've told better joker stories since then. not only that, i'm not as WOW'd by seeing kevin conroy and mark hammil tackling darker material after playing the arkham games. also, i just feel like there've been other things in the past 10 years that have used the killing joke as inspiration for their stories, and they were just executed BETTER than this particular adaptation (the dark knight, arkham knight, arkham origins, mask of the phantasm, episodes of "the batman" and "batman tas". etc.). imo, it's still miles better than the past few animated batman movies, but it's nowhere near as good as some of the earlier ones such as under the red hood, batman vs dracula, and dark knight returns

i still really enjoy the comic, and even though i think we've seen better material with the character since then, i still hold it up as one of the greatest comics ever written/drawn. and i respectfully disagree with @Chancey289. i do feel like the comic is timeless, and an absolute treasure. but, i think this adaptation does the original work a STRONG disservice.

 

[WolfOD64]

Ho, boy...this is one rant I've waited to exhume for a loooong time.

The Killing Joke’s status as a mediocre story has nothing to do with “it being 2016.” I’ve never liked the Killing Joke, and in fact, I’d go as far as to say that it was a load of nonsensical tripe even when it was made back in 1988. Why? Because it’s just like the rest of Alan Moore’s written work: it’s over-indulgent, ham-fisted, preachy, and more fixated and shoving its messages down the audience’s throat than telling a good story, without any semblance of subtlety.

Not only does it shatter the preserved elements of mystery the Joker possessed as a sinister character by extolling the one thing we didn’t need to know about him—that being, his origins—but it also displays quite possibly the most underwhelming and unneccesary version of his origins. It’s like “Oh, he’s not really a bad guy at first…he’s just a miserable comedian down on his luck, coping with the loss of his wife and unborn child.” What a complete deflowering of everything that made the Joker great. It’s like when that godawful live-action Maleficent movie tried to tack on human elements to a character who only really needed to be a force of willful, vile nature, and nothing else. Some villains are not in need of some lame attempt at a tragic backstory, and the Joker is a prime example of someone who certainly ****ing didn’t.

But what makes it all worse is that Moore decides to backhand the reader with some of the most drawn-out and self-fellating monologues I’ve ever beheld. Literally EVERY CHARACTER from the average goon, to Batman, to the Joker himself have some long-winded speech prepared to further drive home the message on “how humanity’s struggle is the REAL joke that Batman must accept” and that “The Bat and the Joker are not entirely dissimilar”. It shatters all immersion to see characters spew such hamfisted diatribe, like each of them are carrying notecards. Alan Moore might’ve sought out to use this kind of dialogue between characters to “stir unasked questions about the Dark Knight’s character and story”, but the only honest question I found myself asking while reading this **** was: who in God’s name does Alan Moore think talks like this? It gets even worse when the Joker starts beating Batman to a pulp, while still showering him with monologue about how “how he needs to accept the truth and laugh with him.” Sound familiar? That’s because this is the kind of immersion-breaking, overly-pretentious nonsense that self-fellating hacks like Hideo Kojima and Hideaki Anno spew out on a regular basis in things like Metal Gear Solid, and its shoe-gazing anime equivalent, Neon Genesis Evangelion.

The only thing that made it worse was that rancid prologue with Batgirl shoehorned in to add dramatic tension to everything that would happen later. And believe me, after sitting through Barbara and all of her Tumblr problems of “being the sidekick that wants to take control” and “wanting to be a romantic equal to Batman”, I found myself actually counting the seconds till when the Joker would blast her in the spine, just to have her shut up.

The Killing Joke movie was terrible because it was adapting a poorly-made comic, but it was somehow made worse by that insufferable prologue. I don’t know how someone could take something that Alan Moore pinched out on an evening of huffing his own self-indulgent farts and make it worse, but man…WB Animationfound a way.

My God, they found a way.

 

[Chancey289]

Ho, boy...this is one rant I've waited to exhume for a loooong time.

The Killing Joke’s status as a mediocre story has nothing to do with “it being 2016.” I’ve never liked the Killing Joke, and in fact, I’d go as far as to say that it was a load of nonsensical tripe even when it was made back in 1988. Why? Because it’s just like the rest of Alan Moore’s written work: it’s over-indulgent, ham-fisted, preachy, and more fixated and shoving its messages down the audience’s throat than telling a good story, without any semblance of subtlety.

Not only does it shatter the preserved elements of mystery the Joker possessed as a sinister character by extolling the one thing we didn’t need to know about him—that being, his origins—but it also displays quite possibly the most underwhelming and unneccesary version of his origins. It’s like “Oh, he’s not really a bad guy at first…he’s just a miserable comedian down on his luck, coping with the loss of his wife and unborn child.” What a complete deflowering of everything that made the Joker great. It’s like when that godawful live-action Maleficent movie tried to tack on human elements to a character who only really needed to be a force of willful, vile nature, and nothing else. Some villains are not in need of some lame attempt at a tragic backstory, and the Joker is a prime example of someone who certainly ****ing didn’t.

But what makes it all worse is that Moore decides to backhand the reader with some of the most drawn-out and self-fellating monologues I’ve ever beheld. Literally EVERY CHARACTER from the average goon, to Batman, to the Joker himself have some long-winded speech prepared to further drive home the message on “how humanity’s struggle is the REAL joke that Batman must accept” and that “The Bat and the Joker are not entirely dissimilar”. It shatters all immersion to see characters spew such hamfisted diatribe, like each of them are carrying notecards. Alan Moore might’ve sought out to use this kind of dialogue between characters to “stir unasked questions about the Dark Knight’s character and story”, but the only honest question I found myself asking while reading this **** was: who in God’s name does Alan Moore think talks like this? It gets even worse when the Joker starts beating Batman to a pulp, while still showering him with monologue about how “how he needs to accept the truth and laugh with him.” Sound familiar? That’s because this is the kind of immersion-breaking, overly-pretentious nonsense that self-fellating hacks like Hideo Kojima and Hideaki Anno spew out on a regular basis in things like Metal Gear Solid, and its shoe-gazing anime equivalent, Neon Genesis Evangelion.

The only thing that made it worse was that rancid prologue with Batgirl shoehorned in to add dramatic tension to everything that would happen later. And believe me, after sitting through Barbara and all of her Tumblr problems of “being the sidekick that wants to take control” and “wanting to be a romantic equal to Batman”, I found myself actually counting the seconds till when the Joker would blast her in the spine, just to have her shut up.

The Killing Joke movie was terrible because it was adapting a poorly-made comic, but it was somehow made worse by that insufferable prologue. I don’t know how someone could take something that Alan Moore pinched out on an evening of huffing his own self-indulgent farts and make it worse, but man…WB Animationfound a way.

My God, they found a way.

I can see where some of this is coming from. But at the end of the day, like I said, I don't think The Killing Joke is really that bad of a story as I still like it. I like it as it was always meant to be, a non canon one shot. Unfortunately like The Dark Knight Returns, it has become a primary story that has defined the character and his adventures as we know them today. And DC never wants to let it go.

But I gotta stop you right there buddy on the comparisons between Metal Gear and Evangelion. I'm a Metal Gear fan because I think's it's basically the ultimate B-Movie in video games when I get right down to it. There are things to be enjoyed in Metal Gear, and I think rightfully so.

BUT I ABSOLUTELY F*CKING DESPISE EVANGELION.

That is probably the most overrated and terrible anime shows in ****ing history. It's insanely PRETENTIOUS and stupid, with the most mentally challenged cast since One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. It proves that angst does not make for good writing. In a nut shell, it's giant robots vs. monsters and everything to make that concept "deep".

Seriously, if you like Evangelion, you have some of the worst taste in shows. Screw the fans. Screw the show. It can freaking die in a fire never to return.

Man, that show literally makes me freaking rage.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Not only does it shatter the preserved elements of mystery the Joker possessed as a sinister character by extolling the one thing we didn’t need to know about him—that being, his origins—but it also displays quite possibly the most underwhelming and unneccesary version of his origins. It’s like “Oh, he’s not really a bad guy at first…he’s just a miserable comedian down on his luck, coping with the loss of his wife and unborn child.” What a complete deflowering of everything that made the Joker great.

I'll respect the rest of what you said as your opinion dude.
But actually, Joker's line "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice" was meant to call the flashback's into question over whether it was really Joker's true origin, or simply how he remembered it at the time.
It only became accepted as the Joker's true origin literally because of how much fans enjoyed it.
Still, by the story's own accord, it's unknown if it's really what happened. The only part we do know happen was the Joker was the Red Hood, and fell into chemicals in a confrontation with Batman.

 

[WolfOD64]

But I gotta stop you right there buddy on the comparisons between Metal Gear and Evangelion. I'm a Metal Gear fan because I think's it's basically the ultimate B-Movie in video games when I get right down to it. There are things to be enjoyed in Metal Gear, and I think rightfully so.

Just because Metal Gear tries to be quirky on the odd occasion with its transmissions, 4tth wall-breaking, and whatever the hell Otakon's supposed to be, doesn't make it a B-Movie. You don't crank out the elongated moral diatribe on the "ethics of war" in MGS3, the ball-gag of conspiracy theories making up the ending cutscene of Sons of Liberty, and the entirety of MGS4's ungodly attempt at trying to paint Snake in a tragic like it's some cheeky fun of a B-Movie. Kojima takes himself seriously as a writer and content creator, and his insistence on stuffing his philosophy down the player's throat is clear evidence of that. And he pushes them, along with his childish attempt at narrative elaboration and symbolism, just as poorly and without subtelty as Evangelion. Kojima and Anno are two sides of the same overtly self-fellating coin. Nothing they create is ironic or even remotely self-aware. And it's an even bigger shame that the people who defend them can't see it from down below the pretentious mountain both writers have decided to seat themselves on.

In fact, only difference between Kojima's games and Evangelion was that at least Evangelion wasn't book-ended by some of the worst stealth in the history of gaming.

BUT I ABSOLUTELY F*CKING DESPISE EVANGELION.

That is probably the most overrated and terrible anime shows in ****ing history. It's insanely PRETENTIOUS and stupid, with the most mentally challenged cast since One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. It proves that angst does not make for good writing. In a nut shell, it's giant robots vs. monsters and everything to make that concept "deep".

Well, at least that's something we can heartily agree on. Just listening to Shinji mope about how cowardly and sneaky he is, combined with that insufferable try-hard sass-towel of a secondary protagonist, Asuka and everyone else in that show cram every existential soliloquy down the audience throat is enough to make a morgue operator dry heave.

Seriously, if you like Evangelion, you have some of the worst taste in shows. Screw the fans. Screw the show. It can freaking die in a fire never to return.

If you would only listen to the way some people defend that show and everything terrible about it. It's like listening to...ahem, well...listening to people defend Metal Gear. (N-no offense meant, Chance).

But you just know it'll return one way or another. If there's one thing Anno loves more than writing this garbage, it's remaking it again....and again, and AGAIN.

Man, that show literally makes me freaking rage.

Now you know how I feel about 99% of anime today. But I've quietly retreated back into the folds of the manga scene where there's variety and narrative nuance...as opposed to the same regurgitated variations of mech shows and moe.

I'll respect the rest of what you said as your opinion dude.

Thanks. That rarely happens on this forum, as the staff can undoubtedly tell you.

But actually, Joker's line "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice" was meant to call the flashback's into question over whether it was really Joker's true origin, or simply how he remembered it at the time.
It only became accepted as the Joker's true origin literally because of how much fans enjoyed it.
Still, by the story's own accord, it's unknown if it's really what happened. The only part we do know happen was the Joker was the Red Hood, and fell into chemicals in a confrontation with Batman.

I certainly hope it isn't true. Part of what makes the Joker such an enigmatic force of nature is that nobody knows how or where he came from. It's that mystery that adds to the question of how he can be the way he is, and outright dismiss moral ground or humane thought while doing the things he does.

It'd be like....oh, I dunno, making quite possibly the worst origins story to one of the best villains put to screen, Dr. Hannibal Lector, in a painfully arch-cringefest like---
Oh. Wait.

 

[Teal]

The only thing that made it worse was that rancid prologue with Batgirl shoehorned in to add dramatic tension to everything that would happen later. And believe me, after sitting through Barbara and all of her Tumblr problems of “being the sidekick that wants to take control” and “wanting to be a romantic equal to Batman”, I found myself actually counting the seconds till when the Joker would blast her in the spine, just to have her shut up.

Spoiler: First act spoilers ahoy!

While I don't necessarily agree with the other points you brought up, I have to say I can't agree enough with you in regards to Barbara. I wanted to shoot her myself at some point. I don't know what Azzarello was thinking (I think he wrote that movie). Her entire prologue was part romantic comedy, part stalker horror. She even had a gay friend! For god's sake, she had a gay, flamboyant friend who encouraged her to get a date! And her struggle with the mob sociopath (which I think was supposed to be analogous to Batman's relationship with The Joker, but in the end didn't really tie in with the main plot in any way) was not nearly as fleshed out. Also, she threw a dude in the bushes just because she overheard him ask his girlfriend for space in their relationship. I thought that was a very sound request and there was nothing criminal about it. Sure, he could have been a disease-ridden stenchpenis, but she had no way of knowing that.

As for the film in itself, I felt like some of the flaws were undeserved. The animation was...good. I expected something like that from a DCAU entry. It didn't blow my mind, but it didn't repulse me either. Voice acting was great. Tara Strong as Barbara nailed it, with Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill remaining consistent in their quality. There was one beef I had with it though (aside from..all the other flaws we listed). It was how empty the city looked like. I know that it's a Batman story and that things must be grimdark, tight and lonely, but I don't think it was an intentional loneliness, at least not in the first act. I think it was more of a by product of the staff's laziness.

Also, why can't DC increase the runtime of their animated movies? Is it written somewhere that they can't go past the 80 minute mark, or something?